Posts by Cold Steel

36

Where Will Jesus Come When He Comes?

by Cold Steel in

according to both christian and jewish eschatology, the messiah will come to jerusalem, where he will deliver the jews from hostile nations "round about.

"since the jehovah's witnesses and other adventists don't believe his coming will be literally fulfilled, but figuratively fulfilled, they simply believe he will return to the earth, where he will slay the wicked and the righteous will be caught up to meet him in the air.. first we have a christian declaration:.

and when [jesus] had spoken these things, while [the apostles] beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Cold Steel

Viviane: He had no wife, no girlfriend, traveled around in a dress with 12 other dudes and had a flair for the dramatic.

Actually, you may be incorrect on every single one of these assertions. His wife may have been Mary Magdalen, at least according to one ancient document (photo below) in which Jesus refers to Mary as his "spouse." Even though this is the only document using the term in that context, there are many other extra-biblical accounts where Jesus certainly treats Mary as a wife. Another document says that Jesus kissed Mary on the mouth, while other documents show tension among Jesus' own apostles, relating that they were jealous that Jesus shared the mysteries of the Kingdom more freely with her than with them.

It's also well attested that Jesus had a number of female followers. His close knit group often caused the Romans and others to refer to early Christianity as a cult. Christians see Jesus as the Messiah, and the head of an actual church (the word is used repeatedly in the New Testament). But historians such as Pliny always saw Jesus as we see David Koresch. But as the church grew and began spreading, Jesus was seen as simply another manifestation of the One God, and the notion of Jesus being married was as completely unthinkable as the Father being married. But where was there ever a father without a mother? Or a son without both? Why would God use the "Father" and "Son" metaphors if those metaphors were incomplete. The early Jews, before Josiah's reforms, worshipped both a male and female version of God. (Methodist scholar Margaret Barker has written about this as well as the early Hebrew belief that Yahweh was a son of the Father-God, and was not the Father.) Her book, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God is described as:

What did "Son of God," "Messiah," and "Lord," mean to the first Christians when they used these words to describe their beliefs about Jesus? In this book Margaret Barker explores the possibility that, in the expectations and traditions of first-century Palestine, these titles belonged together, and that the first Christians fit Jesus' identity into an existing pattern of belief. She claims that pre-Christian Judaism was not monotheistic and that the roots of Christian Trinitarian theology lie in a pre-Christian Palestinian belief about angels--a belief derived from the ancient religion of Israel, in which there was a "High God" and several "Sons of God." Yahweh was a son of God, manifested on earth in human form as an angel or in the Davidic King. Jesus was a manifestation of Yahweh, and was acknowledged as Son of God, Messiah, and Lord. Barker relies on canonical and deutero-canonical works and literature from Qumran and rabbinic sources to present her thoughtful investigation.

If the concept of an apostasy is true, it's likely that many things once believed and held holy would shock us today. Oh, and Jesus did not have a flair for the dramatic...just the opposite. Now, Moses, he had a flair for the dramatic!

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11

People Believe Jehovah Is A God Of Love Because He Is A Bully

by frankiespeakin in

yes the god of the bible has done his share of being a murderous bully(according to the mythology found in the book), his holly motto seems to be through out: "do what i say or i will kill you".

of coarse cringing christian's because of their fear of the deity will proclaim that all these acts of slaughter that the bible ascribes to god as an act of love, and chime in with approval and superlatives when 1john 4:8* is read.

and i atribute it mainly to god being a bully in the bible and threatening to kill every one not having faith in him.. 8 l anyone who does not love does not know god, because m god is love.. .

Cold Steel

God is not seen as a bully at all, but as a peacemaker. He is seen as just and merciful. Unlike the allah of Islam, He does not seek to remove one's free agency; at the same time, He is adamant about protecting the innocent and oppressed and bringing about righteousness as He defines it. The vast majority of Christians honor His judgment as they accept His Fatherhood.

One reason for this honor is that God is seen not only as omnipotent (something atheists seem to dwell on), but omniscient, or all knowing. God is just because He knows all things from the beginning. He knows what will promote good and righteous government and what will destroy it and mankind. Thus, He forbids evil and promotes goodness, decency, integrity, virtue and morality. Most of His critics know nothing about His judgments, yet He knows everything about both His and Ours. On the one hand, He recognizes the free agency of man; however, on the other, He will eventually draw the line. And when mankind, or pockets of mankind, become so evil that they become unable and unwilling to correct themselves, He will terminate their earthly existence (as is His right) and consign those destroyed to a temporary “penalty box,” where they can do no more harm. As history has shown us, righteous societies can become grossly wicked, but wicked societies are incapable of escaping the bonds of moral entropy without outside pressure.

We know that the Lord will not suffer murder, including abortions, neither will He tolerate the predilection of man to get power and gain at the expense of his fellow man. And, we’re told, unless He interferes with us during these last days, mankind would utterly destroy itself. Thus, He not only has the moral right, but the moral duty as our heavenly omnipotent and omniscient parent, to guide us as a parent would guide his children. We also know that when all the facts are in, we will, en masse, fully recognize His power over us and His righteousness to Judge.

Why does He have this power, or authority? Because He provided the plan of salvation by which we all, with but very few exceptions, will defeat Death. By His death on the cross (or beam, whatever), He became our Eternal Judge and will one day redeem us and present the sanctified Earth back to His Father. Before that, though, we will all bend the knee and confess with our mouths that He is our God and our Redeemer.

Atheists and naysayers criticize God for being a celestial bully and busybody, but His criticisms of us are that we are narrow-minded, arrogant, ignorant, bigoted and unreasonably rebellious. We judge before knowing and we put entirely too much faith in the weakness and foibles of man before the sure knowledge, justice, mercy and generosity of the God who gave us life.

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36

Where Will Jesus Come When He Comes?

by Cold Steel in

according to both christian and jewish eschatology, the messiah will come to jerusalem, where he will deliver the jews from hostile nations "round about.

"since the jehovah's witnesses and other adventists don't believe his coming will be literally fulfilled, but figuratively fulfilled, they simply believe he will return to the earth, where he will slay the wicked and the righteous will be caught up to meet him in the air.. first we have a christian declaration:.

and when [jesus] had spoken these things, while [the apostles] beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Cold Steel

According to both Christian and Jewish eschatology, the Messiah will come to Jerusalem, where he will deliver the Jews from hostile nations "round about."Since the Jehovah's Witnesses and other adventists don't believe his coming will be literally fulfilled, but figuratively fulfilled, they simply believe he will return to the earth, where he will slay the wicked and the righteous will be caught up to meet him in the air.

First we have a Christian declaration:

And when [Jesus] had spoken these things, while [the apostles] beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel. And they said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. T hen returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey . (Acts 1)

Here Jesus is taken into a cloud, similar to the way Aaron, then later, Moses, were taken up. But the angels told the apostles that Jesus would appear "in like manner" as "ye have seen him go into heaven." And finally, he ascended from the Mount of Olives.

The Jews believe he will descend to the Mount of Olives from the clouds:

Then shallthe Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle . And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye [of Judah] shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and theLord my Godshall come, and all the saints with thee.

Note, too, that the ancient Jewish scriptures recognized Jehovah as being Christ, not Christ being Michael. This is backed up scripturally by John in the book of Revelation:

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood , and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

In both the ancient Jewish scriptures, it is Jehovah who will come to judge the nations. And it is Jehovah who will come with the clouds of heaven with the saints to mete out justice and to destroy the enemies of Judah. Both Jehovah and Jesus (being the same) are used in fulfillment of the Messiah's Second Coming. Neither one is the Father, for both Jehovah and Jesus are seen as the great Mediator between the Father and man.

The Christian scriptures reinforce the Jewish scriptures in that both Christians and Jews saw Jesus/Jehovah returning to save the Jews from certain destruction. The Christians saw Jesus as returning to save (and convert) Judah at the conclusion of Armageddon. The Jews saw Jehovah as being the Savior, but as Zechariah wrote, Yahweh would come to rescue Judah from a great military power who would otherwise destroy them. Likewise, the Christians saw Jesus as coming to rescue Judah from a great military power who would otherwise destroy them. Ezekiel called this great evil "Gog" and Isaiah called him "the Assyrian." John, in Revelation, calls him the "Beast."

The overwhelming number of Jehovah's Witnesses have no idea how their latter-day eschatology differs from that of the scriptures. But if they're to reject the Bible, just who do they expect to come, Jehovah or Jesus? And if not in Jerusalem at the Mount of Olives, as the Bible foretells, just where do they expect either Jesus or Jehovah to descend? Or will he suddenly appear at a weekly meeting of the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

The leadership of the Society has so rewritten what Armageddon is that virtually no JW I've ever met knows the biblical version. I've read a Watchtower that showed a destructive ball of fire and ARMAGEDDON! was printed across it. I read every word of the article, but nowhere in that article was the biblical take on Armageddon outlined or how, exactly, the Society had changed it. I thus take it that when someone wishes to learn about such topics, they go directly to the Society's magazines and skip the Bible. Back in the 70s, I found that many of the Jehovah's Witnesses read the Bible and could explain it from their point of view. Now, however, they don't seem to read it much.

So what are their expectations regarding the coming of Jesus nowadays? Do they believe he'll come with Jehovah or that only Jehovah will appear?

8

Early christians : Were they chosen ?, if so, what about those who were not?

by opusdei1972 in

it is a hard task to understand what christ and early christians had in mind.

but i noted that in the gospels appears the word "elect" (greek eklektos).

it seems that early christians thought that they were chosen by god.

Cold Steel

The Greeks, of whom Paul was very fond, knew quite well that the earth was not flat. Paul also was very educated and fierce in his condemnation of the Christians (at least he was before his vision). Christianity was never intended to replace the House of Israel, he maintained, for he knew that at the conclusion of the great battle of Armageddon, the Jews would be converted (see Zechariah 12-14) when Jesus/Yahweh returned and his feet would stand on the Mount of Olives. The Jews, seeing the wounds in his hands/feet, would instantly realize his identity and go into a national state of mourning.

The early Christian authorities also knew that this salvation would NOT come in the days of the Roman siege, but would occur after the destruction and dispersal of the Jews and after their return to the lands of their fathers in the future. This return is still in progress and the great battle of Armageddon (Gog and Magog) still in the future. There also are traditions recorded by Origen, who writes: "Clement, the disciple of the Apostles, recalls those whom the Greeks designate as antichthonians, (dwellers on the other side of the earth), and other parts of the earth's sphere (or circuit) which cannot be reached by anyone from our regions, and from which none of the inhabitants dwelling there is able to get to us."

This is often how we know, or surmise, what was known and taught by the early saints -- we find out by what is passed on. Clement was a good friend and disciple of Peter, the chief apostle. In trying to find out everything that was known to them, the early church fathers felt they could preserve the church in as pure a form as possible. Thus, there's a wealth of information that tells us that the apostles did not expect the imminent return of Jesus, and that they didn't believe the earth was flat. They knew about the apostasy, the destruction of the temple and they understood it was to be rebuilt in the last days and that the Jews would ultimately accept Jesus Christ.

17

If the Bible stated "God created man in heaven and placed him in the garden".

by jam in

what would think???

later he sent eve to earth....

Cold Steel

Ha, I knew someone would bring up the Mormons! But the only official teaching of the LDS faith is that man and all other forms of life were created spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. In other words, the idea that man is created in the womb or "sleeps" at death is rejected. Whether Adam was brought to the earth and not formed on it is speculation. But that Adam's spirit was placed within him is not.

24

Jesus 1000 years and Satan's 1000 years in the abyss

by berrygerry in

the thread about satan in the abyss for 1000 years prompts a question.. jesus will rule for 1000 years.. jesus began ruling in 1914, which means his 1000 year reign will end in 2914.. satan will be abyssed for 1000 years.. if the end comes in 2020, satan will be abyssed in 2020, and then released in 3020.. what happens between 2914 and 3020?.

honest question..

Cold Steel

I think the thousand-year reign begins after Armageddon and after Satan is locked up in the abyss. With no one to lead mankind astray, the people and animals will all live in peace and harmony. That means the Millennium. At the end thereof, Satan is released, he stirs up the wicked, there's a brief battle of Gog and Magog, then all of Jehovah's enemies and Satan, himself, will be destroyed. The other thread related to whether Satan was alive or dead (meaning existent or nonexistent) during the thousand years.

Conventional Christian exegesis is divided between, generally, those who believe in literal prophecy and those who believe in replacement theology. JWs tend to go for the latter. Funny, they believe in literal prophecy up to a point, then, suddenly, it's all spiritualized. Nothing means what it says. And the Governing Body gets to determine what the prophecy means.

8

Questions From Readers (w69, 2/15):Will Satan be dead in the Abyss ?

by raymond frantz in

another gem from the watchtower 1969 , back in those days the watchtower was engaged in the bible research to prove satan's actual condition in the abyss .

enjoy .... will satan be dead when he is in the abyss for one thousand years?.

Cold Steel

Jam: Why in the hell would anyone choose to follow Satan?

Hatred. Hatred even trumps the sense of self preservation.

During the battle of Armageddon, the prophets state that those nations surrounding Israel will be so enveloped in hate, that when Jesus returns, many of Israel's [Muslim] enemies will fight him. As we can see now, they have a seething, undying hatred of the Jews. Eventually, they will come down on Jerusalem to take the holy city (see Ezekiel 38-39), and the Lord actually speaks to Gog as though he were present. Zechariah even indicates that some of Judah's neighbors, after the return of the Messiah, will refuse to come to Jerusalem to partake in the feast of the tabernacles. He specifically mentions Egypt (see Zechariah 12-14). The Muslim mindset that the Quran is God's book and Muhammad his prophet is so strong that even when Jesus appears on the Mount of Olives and saves their enemies, the Jews, they are not going to be converted; rather, they're going to be filled with hatred. They won't take it kindly that the religion they believed in, fought and died for, and the god of their fathers -- all was a sham.

But this is exactly what the prophets said is going to happen. How did they know Judah was going to return to its ancestral homeland, and that its sworn enemies would be their neighbors? Why has Israel managed to miraculously survive two massive attacks where, logistically, it should have been destroyed? The Lord said he would, in our day, make Jerusalem a "burdensome stone" to all who set themselves against it. He said Judah would return and make the land a garden, which has happened. Anyway, Islam has not shown itself to be the religion of peace. And they have so come to hate Israel and the Jews that when the Lord returns, they will want no part of him.

18

Can you spot the circular reasoning here?

by DATA-DOG in

when i used to read the bible on a regular basis, i loved "paul's" writings.

anyway, can you see what is actually being said in the following passage?

" if anyone thinks he is a prophet or is gifted with the spirit, he must acknowledge that the things i am writing to you are the lord's commandment.

Cold Steel

There's no mystery to what Paul was saying.

Put more plainly:

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

He's saying that if one is imbued with the Holy Spirit, one will know he is an apostle of God and one with authority. Along the same lines, we read:

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. John 7:16-18

There is no scandal in Paul's words. They are consistent with Christian dogma. It may help if you throw away your RNWT and get a reputable translation. The WTBTS couches everything the Bible says in its own stilted way of speaking and writing. That's the real scandal.

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13

Who Donates Blood For Jehovah's Witnesses That Accept Blood Fragments?

by SanLuisObispoTruthSeeker in

the elders say "its very wrong to donate blood because you never know what the medical community is going to do with that blood.

" i asked one of the brothers who is a consultant at one of the medical centers, "why are we allowed to take blood fragments if were not allowed to donate blood?

" he/she refused to answer, just shook their head and walked away all red faced!

Cold Steel

According to the blood people I used to work with, men can benefit greatly from donating blood. This is because many men carry an excess of iron in their systems. If excessive, they're treated with expensive procedures where the blood is taken, the iron removed and the blood is returned to the body. But if men give blood, they deplete their systems of this iron on a routine basis. And no one charges anyone a dime.

I can't see that the Governing Body would have any objections to having blood taken from the body, but with periodic giving of blood, both men and women can reduce the liklihood of having a heart attack. By going on an aspirin regimine and giving blood, it's less likely that it will be clogged in veins and arteries. So this was the reason that periodic "bleedings" for health reasons were done. It was supposed that the blood was bad in some way, and thus men particularly, benefitted from bleedings. In a way they were right. In earlier times, it was the men who hunted and warred; so they tended to produce more iron in their blood over time. Today, we don't really bleed much when we hunt and we send our kids to fight our battles. So the iron actually works against us.

Again, it's a healthy practice to give blood. The Watchtower and Awake! writers tend to cherry pick all the bad stories that result from receiving blood, but they never bother writing about the many more people who benefit from it.

101

org is dying

by lambsbottom in

i don't understand why so many ex jws and faders think that the jws will continue to grow and thrive as a religion.

i still attend a meeting once a week and you can smell the death of the religion creeping up when you hear the talks, read the study wts and hear the letters from the gb.

the way the organization has changed is a sign that it reached its peak (in "healthy" membership) long ago.

Cold Steel

The question I proffer is, what would be the effects of global catastrophes be on the sect, and religion in general. If we began to have increasingly devastating earthquakes, melting of the polar ice regions (which is caused by volcanic activity, not global warming), resulting in the destruction of coastal cities, and so forth, would this cause people who have left the faith to return to it?

By the way, in point of the Armageddon doctrine held by the WTBTS, as we see the recent military activity in Iraq, and the call by fanatical Muslims for a restored caliphate, the JWs had better rethink their position. The “beast” in the book of Revelation (also known in the Old Testament as Gog, the Assyrian, and fundamental Christianity as “the Antichrist”) rises up in the Middle East and ultimately brings its entire military power against Jerusalem. This is biblical eschatology. The JWs, however, have embraced the replacement theology by which they have replaced Jerusalem and Judah with themselves; yet how can they explain what’s taking place? Judah has returned, Israel has been reestablished, and now the Muslim powers are calling for a return of the caliphate, laying the ground for biblical Armageddon (not JW Armageddon, which is embarrassingly unbiblical).

Jesus returns when the “beast” attacks Jerusalem and is on the point of succeeding. With imminent destruction facing the Jews, the Messiah appears in Heaven and destroys the beast and all but a sixth of his military forces. The kingdom that “was, is not, and will be again” is, I think, the Muslim Caliphate. But prophecy also states that the world will experience many natural disasters and destruction, called by many the “Tribulation.” So when this happens, will people return to religion? The scriptures say no, but that men will “curse God and die,” but those who were once religious is another matter. I believe the Society also is suffering from a lack of faith in its legitimacy. After all, it has no claim to apostolic authority. Most people who leave the faith do not feel there is an alternative, and many end up rejecting all religion.

If these destructions happen, will the WTBTS see a revival? What effect would these devastations have on you? Would you see any religious significance or would you write it off as the earth going through natural changes?

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